xydexx: Needs To Be Said

xydexx, 2008-03-27 06:40 am UTC (Expand)

smashwolf, 2008-03-27 05:08 pm UTC (Expand)

xydexx, 2008-03-27 05:32 pm UTC (Expand)

	xydexx 2008-03-27 06:26 am UTC (link)
	Maybe I'm just getting old, but it seems in recent years people have just become increasingly nastier, what with road rage and shock jocks and so on. And much as I'd like to avoid the cliché of blaming the internet, I can definitely see a correlation between people who act atrociously online carrying those actions over into the offline world. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

leora, 2008-03-27 07:28 am UTC (Expand)

xydexx, 2008-03-27 02:50 pm UTC (Expand)

	geddcoon 2008-03-27 06:08 am UTC (link)
	"toughen up" or "ignore it" Speaking from experience, this was the only thing that ever worked for me. It's not the most fair solution, but it's the most realistic one. (Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)

leora
2008-03-27 07:31 am UTC (link)

Ignore it was the most dangerous and worst bit of advice I was ever given. I was told that they would get bored. Instead, itmeant that the bullying escalated to try to get a reaction out of me, and often rose to dangerous levels. Toughening up was not actually possible, since nobody enrolled mein martial arts classes nor gave me weapons, and there is no other way to actually effectively fight back against someone who is bigger and stronger.

What did work was massive amounts of physical violence directed at the bullies. Which meant that if I could get an older brother or a small gang of older boys to beat the crap out of a bully, then I would be significantly safer. Of course, this method would not protect me from those people, but it would, at least, limit the number of people who would attack me.

As an adult, I feel it is unfortunate that violence was necessary, and I believe that legal means would be preferable and pressing charges would have been a better solution than having the bully beaten up severely.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

kistaro, 2008-03-28 03:51 am UTC (Expand)

mikosquirrel, 2008-03-27 11:33 am UTC (Expand)

	silveradept 2008-03-27 06:13 am UTC (link)
	Telling the victim to toughen up is the easier way out, and lets people avoid the more difficult question of how to instill civilized values in people. (Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)

baphnedia, 2008-03-27 06:22 am UTC (Expand)

silveradept, 2008-03-27 06:41 am UTC (Expand)

baphnedia, 2008-03-28 05:15 am UTC (Expand)

silveradept, 2008-03-28 08:39 am UTC (Expand)

baphnedia, 2008-03-28 09:29 am UTC (Expand)

baphnedia
2008-03-27 06:19 am UTC (link)

It was weird - different things work for different people. The way that I dealt with it was twofold: I became friends with the biggest people in the school (by helping them in their studies, etc), earning their respect... and when times got hard (we had gangbangers move into town while I was in High School), I learned, and began carrying lead pipe nun-chucks (nunchaku generates spelling errors?!) in the inseam of my pants. 24-28" of reach versus some whack with a 4" blade. ROFLMAO *WHAP* (only had to do that once)

As I began with - different things work for different people. He's got to figure out what he has to do to stop being a target - it may be that his parent's involvement prevents him from being able to do something about it himself. The importance to him: If he fails to learn (to include his parents' protection) how to take care of himself, he'll be World's Victim #1 in his adult life.

cashewlou
2008-03-27 07:09 am UTC (link)

Consider that this is a country that, in the eyes of the world, is a bully itself, and the rest falls into place. It is cool these days to stomp on the little people to further yourself.

I was bullied horribly all through elementary school and most of junior high--and the issue never got to school officials, because my own father told me to "toughen up." Seeing no other outlet, I resolved the issue myself by beating the biggest bully in the school unconscious--and I still kept beating on him even after that. I had to be dragged off of him. It is tough for me to watch the similar scene in A Christmas Story; I cringe when I watch it, though it is supposed to be a triumphant event. There is a very helpless feeling when you build up years worth of rage and just snap like that.

I am not proud of this, nor do I say it is the proper solution. I look at Columbine and Virginia Tech and see bullying that has been carried to its extreme (with other factors such as mental illness involved, of course).

The bottom line is that bullying is almost always carried out by those with the mental acuity of a dung beetle. Intelligence and sensitivity are seen as weaknesses, while stubbornness in the face of logic and fact is seen as a virtue. These values are so radically upside-down it boggles the mind.

I wish I had a solution to offer.

xydexx, 2008-03-27 02:42 pm UTC (Expand)

	scritchwuff 2008-03-27 07:27 am UTC (link)
	A lot of the shit the "kids" get away with would be felony battery if the teachers did it to each other. (Reply to this)

terminotaur
2008-03-27 07:30 am UTC (link)

Spot on. That's what I was told. Well, I couldn't manage that. I tried being quiet and not getting in anybodies way. That didn't work. Heck, I even tried berating myself to beat the bullies to the punch. That sort of worked, but after a while you start to believe stuff you repeat over and over....

I still don't quite know what my crime was. Nobody told me. I was fairly bright at that age. I was overweight. I had a funny last name. Maybe it was because I was generally tall for my age and I'd not fight back. I saw what happened in such fights. Nobody really won, and it was dumb to get into trouble for someone else treating me bad. Still, I'm sure they manufactured crimes I needed a beating for. The brain is great at doing such things. I suppose the people that put me against a wall for the better part of three years near every day and took it out on my back had some reason. As far as I knew I was the only suicidal 3rd grader. Oh sure I complained, but if they got in trouble they just took it out on me more when punishment was over. They knew they'd wear me down, and they did. Teachers just couldn't believe that people didn't change after getting detention. Either that or they really didn't care that much.

Shock radio and the internet have been great in this. Basically they've created forums where people can hate with no consequence, and hate to empty air. When I've listened to what passes for political discourse its amazing how much of a monster people make the "other" out to be. Then of course whatever they say and do is "justified". "Those" people need to be taught a lesson and the only thing they understand is nastiness. Or at least this is what it builds to in the minds of some I think. In the end what it seems is more of a justification for their own anger.

I'm sorry to some, but I don't agree with the some people may deserve it or find out what you have to do to conform/threaten/beat/strike fear into the bullies approaches. I think each sacrifices a portion of whatever high ground you may claim for expediency. I never found out what worked, but you know what, it didn't matter. I didn't need to do that to prevent being "World's Victim #1". If I didn't need to figure it out then I think its safe to say the boy in this case doesn't in any way NEED to figure it out to prevent later victimization.

	clipfox 2008-03-27 07:44 am UTC (link)
	The school staff just wants Columbine Part III to happen to liven things up. :) (Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)

unclekage, 2008-03-27 12:05 pm UTC (Expand)

koogrr, 2008-03-27 01:01 pm UTC (Expand)

ceruleanst
2008-03-27 08:21 am UTC (link)

When I read the part about the video camera, it immediately brought to mind the arguments that the Abu Gharib photos and the videos of Marines killing puppies et cetera must be faked somehow, because someone who had really done these things never would have been so foolish as to create evidence. In fact, bullies never even imagine a need for discretion, because they are never punished for anything.

	unclekage 2008-03-27 12:07 pm UTC (link)
	Sadly, the adults aren't going to help him. His only recourse is to fight back, and the only way he can do that is to learn to use physical force... ...or learn chemistry. And that's as far as this story will go. (Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)

quentinor, 2008-03-27 02:39 pm UTC (Expand)

smashwolf, 2008-03-27 05:16 pm UTC (Expand)

joshuwain
2008-03-27 12:19 pm UTC (link)

I think it's not just "these days", my friend. Looking back at my own experiences, growing up in the 70s, the general reaction was the same. When I finally did fight back, both of us got in trouble.

I think there is so much to reform in this country, I don't even know where to start. But, looking at bullying and the ramifications on intelligence, public behavior, and our society in general, I'd have to say correcting our schools and public institutions that allow for such behavior should be the place to begin.

zorinlynx
2008-03-27 01:48 pm UTC (link)

There were no bullying problems at my high school.

Why? Because students who bullied got *expelled*.

It was as simple as that.

Granted, it's easier to deal with the problem this way in private schools than it is in public, but there really should be special schools for violent sociopaths. Schools where they can receive the psychological counseling they need before they grow up to become criminals.

I'm not really talking about the jock that occasionally picks on someone; I mean the REAL problems, those who repeatedly put down, physically hurt, and otherwise make the lives of a small group of students miserable.

They need special treatment to try to reverse this behavior, not only for the good of those they harass, but themselves, so they grow up to be productive members of society rather than riffraff.

amilori, 2008-03-27 04:13 pm UTC (Expand)

smashwolf, 2008-03-27 05:18 pm UTC (Expand)

kurradragon
2008-03-27 02:08 pm UTC (link)

I fully agree. I'm not a parent, I'm not an older adult in my 40s or 50s or 60s, I'm not a fat old politician with an agenda who's pushing 'Think of the children!' *drama* while hunting for votes. (Apologies to non-old non-fat politicians out there, but still...) I'm young (you either know, or can at least estimate my age pretty well, I'm younger than Savant by a few years). I can still remember clearly a lot of my childhood.

And I know better than anyone else (except today's kids) how bullying is, and how impossible it seems to escape it. Teachers and (some) parents, unfortunately, never seemed to help out (my mom did protect me though, and I needed all the help I could get!), and it seems they always lag 15 years behind the most critical issues facing kids.

How unfortuante it is, that not even with deaths across several schools and universities for nearly at least 20 years now, no one seems to realize that school culture itself is broken, and that bullying and teasing should never exist at all. Poor kids, really. Adults won't listen to them just because they are kids, and we assume that kids' voices and opinions don't have as much worth because they are not as old and experienced as we are.

P.S. I can't see the article, says I need a login. :/

kensan_oni, 2008-03-27 02:32 pm UTC (Expand)

kurradragon, 2008-03-27 02:56 pm UTC (Expand)

BugMeNot -

xydexx, 2008-03-27 02:58 pm UTC (Expand)

Re: BugMeNot -

kurradragon, 2008-03-27 03:08 pm UTC (Expand)

kensan_oni
2008-03-27 02:28 pm UTC (link)

In a way, I suppose I got lucky. People stopped bullying me the day I put a kid out of school for four days, and probably to the doctors, cause I threw a steel bristle brush into the guy in an adrenaline rushed moment.

Switching schools also helped a lot, and being aware of the kinds of environments I was in that started those problems helped avoid further conflicts.

I can imagine it being harder to dodge town problems now days, with the internet and all, but I am deeply surprised that the parents and the kid just simply haven't opted to go to a different school by now. A fresh environment does change a lot.

Still, one has to wonder how to address the issue of handling problem students when the state mandate is that they stay in school. Outside of sending them to a penitentiary school away from other children, I don't see how, and then I see the nightmare of the kid who accidentally gets sent there instead of the real problem people.

My 2 cents on bullies.

quentinor
2008-03-27 02:33 pm UTC (link)

I really feel sorry for that kid. Unfortinately....This society is not fair and bullies seem to get away with alot. It would be nice if the laws were actually enforced in such cases.

Fact 1: Most bullies in real life are actually cowards, and total insecure loosers. They are usually sociopathic and love to use tactics of intimidation, fear, and "mobbing". Some will actually assult their victims. But some victims also enable bullies to keep assulting and threats and intimidation to go on. You cannot reason with a bully and it is not worth trying to do so. So don't waste your time even trying.

Fact 2: Internet bullies are just overall pathetic and useless in general! People who bully online for "lul'z" are nothing serious "basement dwelling loosers" with no life! They hate their own miserable existance and situation where they have to go and shit on everyone else to make themselves feel better. I believe these people are called "TROLLS". They don't have real jobs, and if they do have a job it is only a part time piece of crap "would you like fries with that? / Paper or Plactic?" kind of jobs. They have very poor social skills IRL and tend to be very anti-social. Most aren't educated, and those who claim they are educated? Trust me!! They are lying! If they are so "edumacated" and working in the professional world, and making a professional salary? Then they wouldn't even have time to start online drama and harassment! They do it for shits and giggles because they have nothing better to do. They can't make it in the real world and the internet only gives them an illusiion of having power. Where n the real world they have none.

Dude the best way to handle a bully is to be smarter and learn to realize and and detect one. The way to win against a bully is to be smarter and dont even give them the time. If you react to their crap they'll only feed off of it and never stop.

I personally will confront one right back and tell them strait forward they are a looser. I like the direct approach and they hate it when you arent afraid of them. All they want you to do is fear them and bow down to their every whim. They want you to despairately seek their approval! They get a rush off of people groveling to them. *WRONG!!* I don't play that shit and they don't like me at all. I also don't care if they don't like me and the more they hate me the more amused I get. Let them hang themselves with each move or each time they try. But the trick is to realize and detect bullying early on. In my book "respect goes both ways." I dont ever play that one sided shit!

The only power a bully has on you is what you give them. So don't give them any!

Threats and assult are against the law! You go to jail for assult and making threats! Plain and simple! It is up to the victim to report it and press the issue. It is not fair and it sucks. But that is how it is. Personally if the kid were assulted they and their parents have to get the cops involved and press it as a legal issues with the assailant and thir family. The burden of proof unfortanately lies with the victim.

"Ignore them and they'll go away" doesn't work. -

xydexx, 2008-03-27 03:11 pm UTC (Expand)

Re: "Ignore them and they'll go away" doesn't work. -

quentinor, 2008-03-27 06:44 pm UTC (Expand)

dv_girl
2008-03-27 04:12 pm UTC (link)

I was this kid in a former life. In school I routinely got attacked and the principal (who was a dickish Bapist Deacon who'd given me detention for playing D&D at lunch) always took the side of the aggressors. So I'd routinely get wailed on AND get punished for it by the school. I had to pay for the books they damaged too. How nice.

That reminds me. My 20 year reunion is coming up soon. I should begin building an art car to go and visit them. :) Living weird is the best revenge. :)

smashwolf, 2008-03-27 05:29 pm UTC (Expand)

tombfyre
2008-03-27 04:31 pm UTC (link)

Aye, I was always beaten upon among other things as a kid, all through school and whatnot. I too was given the advise of "Ignore it and it will go away", or "You're not trying hard enough to be their friends". This was probably the worst advise of my life, as it resulted in year after year of worsening mental and physical abuse. It cause me to snap and go quite nutty a few times, and eventually led to me bringing weaponry to school.

Fortunately I never used any of the articles in question, I just made it abundantly clear to the usual bullies that I was done taking their shit and abuse, and the next person to so much as glance at me funny was going to be lynched with their own entrails. Oddly enough, that worked. I was left alone by absolutely everyone for my last year of school, minus the odd idiot trying to start trouble from a distance.

What really wound up angering me was in my Senior year I was selected to actually teach the Junor Drafting class as an extra-credit kind of thing, and I saw the same kind of bullying going on. I tried to stop it myself, but other kids wern't too inclined to listen to an older Teenager. I alerted the teachers and whatnot, but they tried the usual method of wrist slapping and ignoring it until it went away. Finally the bullied child snapped worse than I did, and wound up throwing computer equipment around in a fit of rage. He was expelled, and the bullies just found somebody else to get their jollies from. :p The system fails.

smashwolf, 2008-03-27 05:33 pm UTC (Expand)

tombfyre, 2008-03-27 06:19 pm UTC (Expand)

quentinor, 2008-03-27 06:51 pm UTC (Expand)

kistaro, 2008-03-28 03:45 am UTC (Expand)

kinkyturtle, 2008-03-28 05:26 am UTC (Expand)

tombfyre, 2008-03-28 05:52 am UTC (Expand)

kinkyturtle, 2008-03-28 07:17 am UTC (Expand)

tombfyre, 2008-03-28 07:23 am UTC (Expand)

	Interesting article on the subject....(long) terminotaur 2008-03-27 05:44 pm UTC (link)
	http://psychologytoday.com/articles/index.php?term=19950901-000020&page=1 (Reply to this)

	defenbaugh 2008-03-27 07:58 pm UTC (link)
	And then these bullies are later surprised when they turn 18 and try the same tricks and suddenly end up in jail for assault, or who resort to violence to work out all their problems. Not only are we failing the victem, but the bullies too, who by the time the law hammers down on them, its too late to change. (Reply to this)

goldenstallion
2008-03-27 09:52 pm UTC (link)

Whinnyhi.

Needless to say, I was the target of bullying several times over the years, mostly back in the fifties and sixties (am 59).

Notice a trend now. Society is sick and tired of bullying. New laws are being passed all over the US and other Countries that adress bullying. Here, in Michigan, USA, it is a major concern.

But I also think of the sexual perverted teachers from my past and that is another problem that is being adressed more and more these days. Stuff teachers did to me and my fellows were ignored. Dark sarcasm in the classroom type things are also a part of bullying. My own mother, now in her late seventies, can barely talk about this with me without tears (guilt and remorse, etc.) because she was also a victim of trying to be a parent in a society that, largely, ignored or sluffed-off or simply did not care.

Then there is the problem of trying to fight back. Nowadays if a bully punches you and you hit back, YOU are in trouble. It seems defending yourself is a crime these days and that is another ROOT of this problem. The bully knows either you will not hit back physically or in other ways (being a fink or a tattletale was always a bad thing that put you in the catagory or a baby na-na tattletale and yet, often the best recourse IS to talk to the important adults in your life (parental units the best example... or a trusted teacher).

This thread is huge because it affects all of us and is a major problem.

Rambling.

Steed

kistaro
2008-03-28 03:43 am UTC (link)

Chalk me up as another one of those folk on the wrong end of this. I was taught to be a pacifist, so I didn't fight back; fighting back was, after all, against the rules. Officially, attempting to do anything other than run- including blocking a punch- was "escalating the fight", making both combatants equally culpable according to the school. So I got detention once for trying to prevent myself from being punched in the face; even though the other people in detention were generally my adversaries, they had a moment of clarity at how incredibly fucked up it was that I, of all people, was there.

Mind you, that turned out to be an excellent opportunity; I helped everybody with the homework they were struggling through and finally, in the last half of the first semester of 9th grade, the bullying let up. It helped that by then I'd learned to at least verbally spar back, a step I wouldn't even take before- despite the constant insults to me, I was required to skip lunch and write a confession to my parents the one time I said something nasty back. It helped that my parents were proud of me; they figured Matt deserved it, and the insult was, for third grade, reasonably creative. ("If head size reflected IQ, my head would be the size of Africa and yours would be the size of a pea!" Well, creative for a third-grader anyway.)

In retrospect, the administration's actions like that- major punishments without warning immediately upon my trying anything, things that the regular bullies got away with- made some kind of sick sense: I could be saved, if only I was deterred hard enough from ever picking up such aggressive habits. The chronic bullies were lost causes. At least I found a few friends, when nobody was looking; I finally understood that most of the people picking on me were doing so to avoid the wrath of the real bullies, whom I could identify as the ones who actually assaulted me rather than just threatening to do so and making the occasional hit of opportunity. And I learned to give fewer opportunities; I never did get trapped in my own locker, despite efforts, because I took the precaution of installing shelving.

As I said, high school got better. Not because people were getting "more mature", as my parents promised year after year, as I became a more visible target by being skilled ahead two grades when I was short anyway, but because I finaly found a small group of people I was safe with, and I learned to be rude to people. And the group of kindred nerds found two bullies who desparately needed homework help- bullies who fit the traditional model of depressed, unhappy people, rather than the self-satisfied jocks who were the usual problem- and wound up turning them into nerds, too; nerds willing to help look out for the rest of us, which at least reduced my injury rate.

And then I dropped out after getting hit in both eyes with a laser pointer. The "dazzle" tendency is stronger than the blink reflex, and it is sufficient to cause eye damage with good enough aim. So I guess bullying made me what I am today: a high school dropout, living in a small-ish apartment.

And I guess that which got me bullied made me what I am today: a well-paid college-grad computer professional, paying off my student loans ahead of schedule, who worked as a volunteer at a science museum for years. Net gain, I guess; to not be bullied would have required me to spend a lot more time and effort and money "fitting in", "being cool", and understanding the social order, and I was too busy with my studies for any of that.